Hi all, I might as well share my experiences with my 2015 Vintage... just in case your were experiencing similar issues. My Vintage has Indian Air Cleaner & Stage 1 (6 shooter). Since just after Christmas, I replaced with Rush Racing exhaust so it is even louder than Stage 1. I was hoping to drown out the engine clacking sound, which started at 5,000kms (but that is another story). My issue is, when I ride the bike, the exhaust sound goes quiet... flat... or tame. Imagine your throaty exhaust sound disappearing and being replaced by stock exhaust sound (and sometimes, even quieter). Quiet state might last a few seconds or for last over half-an-hour (totally random and I cannot make it happen at will). If your bike sounds great some days and not so great at other times, your bike might be experiencing the same issue as mine (possibly at a milder level), which would be difficult to detect as the sound would progressively go quiet and progressively return to normal. Once I realised what was happening, it annoyed me to no end. Before I knew what was happening, when TS111 use to tame, I thought it was my ears! I've heard other car/bike engines/exhaust sounding 'a little different' between hot days and cold nights but nothing like this. Over the past 6 months, it would go 'quiet' to a varying degrees (say 15% quieter than normal and then back to normal, then 30% quieter, than back to normal again and so on) throughout the ride. This happened most days. Although, sometimes, it stays normal (more or less) for a week or two. Melbourne dealer (specifically John) bent over backwards to help me and tried to duplicate the sound for himself but since the exhaust sound changes so progressively, it was difficult to detect. Since April 2015, my bike did go 'extremely quiet' - I call it, 'f@rting' sound level (say '50% quieter' than normal) half-a-dozen times, but it only ever lasted for a few minutes. I spent hundreds of hours reading everything about TS111 on 2 x USA forums, spoke with several people more knowledgable and the most likely cause/explanation has been identified (not officially...). Indian uses 'Easy Start' camshafts on TS111. There are 3 cams. One in the middle is for intake valves. The outer two are for exhaust valves. Those exhaust cams contain retractable lobe that automatically retracts once the engine starts. By opening up the valves a little, piston compression is reduced and makes it easier for the starter motor to crank. A few of us believe that this 'easy start' cams OR lobe retraction mechanism is not working properly causing my issues. Recently, my wife and I took 2 weeks off and toured 3 states. During the trip, I had my GoPro strapped to my chest and manage to record the exhaust taming by pure chance. Disclaimer: Please note that, YouTube does compress audio and the sound is less pronounced on this video than the uncompressed video file I have on my computer. Also, the listener is advised to use quality speakers when viewing. Built in speaks on a laptop or iPad are not suitable as deep bass sound cannot be replicated. Anyway, for sh!ts 'n' giggles, here it is:
Huh haha!! Of course more power will fix anything! What I said in my OP is a speculation. If we are right, replacing the cams (with stock or Stage 2) should fix it... but to be sure, checking top end and making sure everything is within spec (not too much play) would help, I would think. Might as well check the pushrods also. But I'm no mechanic or engineer so... it will all remain a guesstimate at this stage.
Difficult to say... not really noticeable when I ride. The two 'Normal' examples on my video is how I ride most of the time. Also, the nature of the issue I have is, exhaust cams can open up the valves at any time, and presumably to varying degrees - that is, partially or fully. So, unless I open up the throttle full, just at the right moment when cams are playing up, it is difficult to assess the engine output. If I ride WOT (wide open throttle) at every set of lights and every other minute, I might be able gauge the power loss as it happens but, in every day riding...
By the way, if you are interested in seeing 'Easy Start' cam in action, check out this video. I apologise in advance for showing you a video with Harley in it. By the way, it appears S&S did make our standard cams. Patent for design belongs to S&S. Advance the video to: 1:30 mark.
Thanks V-twin very interesting post. Sorry to hear you are having dramas and I hope you get it sorted. I didn't realise how the cams worked and I am not sure about having moving parts in my cams. Ok while new (except maybe in your case unfortunately) but it is just more things to wear out in the long run. I guess that is the risk we take for having the advatages of modern technology.
Thanks Robbo. I'm not 100% sure it is the easy start cams. It could be cam chain tensioner I guess or loose top end bits. But I am certain component within the engine is faulty (or outside the manufacturing tolerance). Today is the day I get to speak with Indian HQ guy. Wish me luck he doesn't say, 'That's normal'.
UPDATE: I had a chat with a head honcho who looks after warranty repairs from Indian HQ today. He said he will look into it. Now I wait...
Any mention of void of warranty with the Rush exhaust or are they going to check it out under warranty?
I wouldn't go that far but they didn't say, 'Everything is normal' so that is a good start. As far as I can guess, they will contact the States and decide what to do... (If any). Once they start opening up the engine, I will know they agree that something is not right and they are willing to look for it. Until then...
As far as I know from the US forums, any slip-ons are fine. No issues with warranty. If you go with full exhaust system and replace the headers (meaning, no catalytic converter), that might be a problem OR at the very least, fingers may be pointed at it (if situation calls for it) I was in the dealership with DarkScout (who is having a massive throttle spasm on his Scout. Basically, under certain conditions, his engine revs at 2,000rpm for a few seconds and then shoots up to 2,300rpm, back to 2,000rpm, repeats over and over again for several minutes. All along, throttle was closed (no hands on grips). Bike was in neutral. You may have seen his video before it was requested to be removed?)... anyway, in his situation, they had a close look at his slip-ons... and asked that it was just a 'slip-ons' (as in, still using stock headers). Even asked him about his aftermarket horn and how it was wired (used original connection. No wire slicing). But the important question was, 'Have you ever had an engine management controller or piggy back system fitted on this bike?' If he had, I think it would have been difficult for DarkScout. Fortunately, he had not. They will investigate and endeavour to rectify. As for me, they have not started working on it yet so no idea what is going to happen.
What an interesting problem V-Twin. I have GoPros on my bike regularly, and have never heard anything similar. The easy start cams hypothesis sounds pretty plausible eh? Speaking of which, no wonder the 111 uses the S+S cams - have you seen the X Wedge? How many k's do you have on your bike? Oh, also, do you use a remote mic on your GoPro? I heard no wind noise and perfect exhaust sound. Cheers.
Hey Rob, Re: interesting problem - it sure is interesting but I sure could have done without it. Re: Easy start cam could be a problem - I thought so too but the HQ guy was pretty sure it could not be. Re: X Wedge - Yes, it was in the S&S vid at about 1:40 mark (I think)... I have heard that Stage 2 Cams are made by S&S, now I know why. Re: Kms - 12,000kms. But my exhaust taming issue is not new. It has plagued my Vintage most of my ownership. It has only ever gone this quiet (my vid) about a dozen times. Other times are less obvious (well, that was before I put a loud exhaust) but I notice the exhaust going flat when I take off at the set of lights. When you are expecting glorious V-Twin sound, and you get something much less, it is very disappointing. Re: Remote mic - not on that vid. I did buy a fox tail mic to capture the exhaust taming issue earlier on but I could not duplicate the issue when I wanted to record. Back then, I had much quieter Stage 1 pipes and GoPro Hero 3 and the sound recording was bad. I have Hero 4 Silver now with 3m waterproof rear cover (which is the flimsy plastic sheet) so sound gets in the case pretty well, while blocking the wind noise reasonable well too. Once I get up to 80kms, wind noise everywhere but it seems to deal with it better than my old Hero 3 with open cover (lots of wind noise) or full hard plastic cover (can't record surrounding sound well). So, I am happy with Hero4 and the rear cover I'm using.
